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rangersyl Don't get me wrong, I love J/I fic, and there is some fantastic stuff out there. And even right now, I'm following several stories that I really enjoy. But some things I see drive me right up the wall. And most of it has to do with Irina.
I'm primarily a Jack fan. JBE (Jack Bristow Enforcer) to the extreme. And can I say it? I enjoyed S1 Alias more than S2. I've got my Mom hooked on Alias now and we're done watching S1, and halfway through S2 at this point. My misgivings with S2 are primarily that Jack as a character was purposely weakened in order to make Irina look good. His entire arc was centered around Irina and he was a tool used to enhance her standing.
Enter a significant quantity of current fanfic. It's all about Irina, and it annoys the heck out of me. Yes, Irina is smart, deadly, mysterious, sexy, and all that. But many authors (like the S2 writers) can only illustrate that if they keep Jack standing still and ineffectual as Irina runs circles around the poor man.
The other thing that sticks in my craw is the twisted concept that Jack is somehow a jerk, or worse, because he can't bring himself to trust Irina. Many authors understand that Jack doesn't trust her, but they don't understand WHY. So he's written as the bad guy, the mean old Jack who won't give sweet little Irina the benefit of the doubt when everyone around him can see that she really means well. And then to add insult to injury, legions of feedbacking fans punctuate this with 'ooh that mean old Jack.... etc. etc.'.
Puh-leaze.
The amount of psychological damage Irina did to Sydney and Jack cannot be underestimated. It cannot. Lesser people would not have been able to pull their lives back together. As![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
synaesthete7 has succinctly pointed out: Jack is not a jerk. He simply has a healthy sense of self-preservation when it comes to Irina. And he's learned the hard way not to set that aside.
The burden of earned trust is firmly on Irina's shoulders. It is Jack who must go against all he has learned in twenty years to take a leap of faith. For me, that is the fascination of the relationship, the question of trust, when it is earned and bestowed.
And maybe that's why I have a hard time trying to write J/I, because I just can't wrap my brain around Irina to the point where I'm comfortable interpreting her motives.
That being said, in many ways, I am actually enjoying S3 more than S2. Gone is the whole Irina thing that was like watching a train wreck. You knew she was going to betray them, it wasn't going to be pretty, and it was only a matter of time. Now Jack seems to have found himself, is growing as a person, and his development isn't hinged on Irina.
If only Lena Olin would come back now so we could perhaps see a more equitable relationship in action.
Any Irina apologists out there?
I'm primarily a Jack fan. JBE (Jack Bristow Enforcer) to the extreme. And can I say it? I enjoyed S1 Alias more than S2. I've got my Mom hooked on Alias now and we're done watching S1, and halfway through S2 at this point. My misgivings with S2 are primarily that Jack as a character was purposely weakened in order to make Irina look good. His entire arc was centered around Irina and he was a tool used to enhance her standing.
Enter a significant quantity of current fanfic. It's all about Irina, and it annoys the heck out of me. Yes, Irina is smart, deadly, mysterious, sexy, and all that. But many authors (like the S2 writers) can only illustrate that if they keep Jack standing still and ineffectual as Irina runs circles around the poor man.
The other thing that sticks in my craw is the twisted concept that Jack is somehow a jerk, or worse, because he can't bring himself to trust Irina. Many authors understand that Jack doesn't trust her, but they don't understand WHY. So he's written as the bad guy, the mean old Jack who won't give sweet little Irina the benefit of the doubt when everyone around him can see that she really means well. And then to add insult to injury, legions of feedbacking fans punctuate this with 'ooh that mean old Jack.... etc. etc.'.
Puh-leaze.
The amount of psychological damage Irina did to Sydney and Jack cannot be underestimated. It cannot. Lesser people would not have been able to pull their lives back together. As
synaesthete7 has succinctly pointed out: Jack is not a jerk. He simply has a healthy sense of self-preservation when it comes to Irina. And he's learned the hard way not to set that aside. The burden of earned trust is firmly on Irina's shoulders. It is Jack who must go against all he has learned in twenty years to take a leap of faith. For me, that is the fascination of the relationship, the question of trust, when it is earned and bestowed.
And maybe that's why I have a hard time trying to write J/I, because I just can't wrap my brain around Irina to the point where I'm comfortable interpreting her motives.
That being said, in many ways, I am actually enjoying S3 more than S2. Gone is the whole Irina thing that was like watching a train wreck. You knew she was going to betray them, it wasn't going to be pretty, and it was only a matter of time. Now Jack seems to have found himself, is growing as a person, and his development isn't hinged on Irina.
If only Lena Olin would come back now so we could perhaps see a more equitable relationship in action.
Any Irina apologists out there?
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no subject
Date: 2004-01-01 09:14 pm (UTC)I would like to write J/I if I had time and/or a plot, but since I have neither I shall stick to musing on my unwritten Sweiss instead. ;)
Irina apologist here!
Date: 2004-01-01 11:04 pm (UTC)Uh...no. Irina is not The Demon Spawn. She can be cruel, but so can Jack. It was Jack's choice to become estranged from Sydney--he didn't have to be. As far as Jack standing on his own two feet as a character, I tend to disagree. ;) At no point in season two did I think that Jack was less than capable. But then, I guess it depends on how you interpret the events in ADT. ::shrug::
Sorry...sorry... ;)it's just a sore point with me in Alias fandom--this need to demonize one character over another.
But that's just me. :) I love both characters to pieces, and generally tend to think that season 2 was/is better than season 3...
Re: Irina apologist here!
Date: 2004-01-01 11:35 pm (UTC)Regarding Jack in S2. What I look for in a character is for them to be active rather than reactive. In most of S2, Jack was passive. He was strictly reacting to outside forces, not shaping his own story. Moreover, I can't think of anything significant he managed to accomplish that wasn't done with Irina's help.
Contrast that with S1 where he quite handily played several 'games' simultaneously -- protecting Sydney, dealing with Will without getting him killed, handling Sloane and SD6. No, he didn't do everything himself and wasn't always successful, but Jack was instrumental in shaping the entire environment of S1. In S2, it was Irina shaping the environment and it seemed that everyone else was relegated to the status of her pawn. S3 is more satisfying for me in that (in spite of other glaring problems not associated with Jack) he is once again shaping the playing field.
And I think that a lot of fic (which is what drove me to rant in the first place) is written by folks who have only seen S2 and haven't seen the full Jack picture.
And you're right, S2 hinges on your interpretation of ADT. I can't interpret it, there just aren't that many clues. Everything Irina did or said could mean just about anything. When was she lying, or not, when was she sincere? I haven't a clue. I. Just. Don't. Get. Her.
I WANT her to care about Sydney and Jack. I WANT to like the character. She's fascinating, and when she and Jack are working together, they're an unstoppable force. But I have a hard time coming up with a way to explain all of her actions. And I'd love to hear some theories!
Addendum to my first comment(LONG)
Date: 2004-01-01 11:58 pm (UTC)I tend to lean the IRM way, so this post'll be a little Irina biased. ;)
I agree that much of J/I fanfic seems to paint an image of Saint Irina. I don't think it's a fair portrait. Like I said in my above post, I don't think Irina is the devil's spawn, but I don't think she's pure as the driven snow, either. She's...human. Neither completely good, nor completely bad. I think one of the most fascinating aspects of the J/I relationship is the fact that, in a lot of ways, Jack and Irina are mirror images of each other. Both can be quite brutal when they feel they need to be, especially with regards to Sydney. To their minds, Sydney's safety is paramount, even if they end up hurting her in the process(Jack's Project Christmas stint, Irina's repeated attempts to subdue her daughter via tasering, gunshot, or physical force) So, imho, they're pretty even with regards to their treatment of their daughter.
As for Irina's motives...I get her. I don't think I can write her, but I get her. I think to some degree, both Irina and Jack's lives can be summed up by the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Do I think Irina loved Jack during her ten year marriage to him? Absolutely. Do I think she loves him still? Yes. As for her 'betrayal' of him 20 years ago...did she betray him? Yes. Do I think she had a choice? Ehhh...that's iffy. She was KGB. She was sent to the US to do a job. From Irina's standpoint, she was protecting her country. Her problem lay in the fact that she actually fell in love with her target.
And it /was/ a problem. From a strategic standpoint, anyway. Until we know what exactly happened when Irina left Jack the first time, we can't really say why she chose to leave rather than, say, fighting it out with the KGB for her family. ::shrug::
As for what she did in ADT...I'm not convinced we have the whole story, there, either. I'd hoped, had LO returned, that we would've gotten some explanation for her actions. And FWIW, I'm not one of those who thinks Jack is a fool for having trusted her in ADT. I think he knew, in general, that she was going to try something, but for his own purposes, took the tracker out and let her run. I have an entire theory on why, but this post is already way too long, so...;)
I think both Jack and Irina live in a world of The Lesser of Two Evils. That is, they see an objective, and choose the quickest(and hopefully least damaging) path to it.
EX: Jack:
Problem:Irina is a threat to Sydney
Most Efficient Solution: Frame Irina and have her executed.
Solution: Sydney is alive(and Irina is no longer a threat to Jack's tenous relationship with his daughter.)
Irina: Problem: Cuvee is watching Irina interrogate Sydney, and will surely kill them both.
Most Efficient Solution: Shoot Sydney in the shoulder, thus proving loyalty to Cuvee, and buying Sydney time to escape.
Result: Sydney is secure. A wounded(angry and distrustful) Sydney is better than a dead Sydney.
Both are wrong, here. It's a vicious way to do things, but it's what they understand. And I think that's a lot of what Irina's doing with her family--hurt Sydney and Jack now, only to save them later.
Anyway, all of this to say that I basically see Irina and Jack as equals already. Should Jack be more trusting of Irina? Not necessarily. I /do/ think that he should understand her motives a bit better, though. It's his own pattern after all. ;)
The one irritant in J/I fanfiction for me is the 'oh, they fall into bed and everything's all right.' scenerio. Um...no. Great sex does not solve all your problems.
Thanks for letting me blather on in your LJ. ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-02-10 09:23 pm (UTC)I agree with about 99% of this. I very much dislike the "Jack knows nothing but ought to take Irina on faith" school of belief; I think Jack's an intelligent, competent man, and as such absolutely should NOT take Irina on faith. The thing is -- I think Irina fans' expectations of Jack's trust go MUCH farther than Irina's own expectations ever would. She knows how much credit she has and has not earned; I think in S2 Jack ended up giving her more trust than she anticipated, not less.
I am sympathetic to Irina's motives, if not her methods, and I believe in her love for Jack and Sydney. I do think that the show veered near turning Irina into some kind of psychic superwoman -- which is a very entertaining idea but a dramatic dead-end -- and that there is a great deal of fic that falls into that trap.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 04:41 am (UTC)You've hit the nail on the head -- twice! I agree that Irina was surprised and pleased with the amount of trust Jack did grant her. She seemed grateful for in on several occassions.
And I agree 100% on Mystic!Irina. She drives me nuts LOL. And as you said, she's a dramatic dead-end. I prefer a flawed Irina, someone who struggles with her choices and her emotions.